DOWNLOAD/ OPEN TRANSCRIPTION DM-10062 04-30-02 Shanna- Papie, dark rm, canavans And what do you know of your mother's childhood and education? Nothing, that's what I ws saying. I often think, what was her childhood like? I know they were poor, poor. Because Ginny said, her folks, she said, her mother was poor. But she said, her mother said, my mother was, they were poor, poor. There really aren't any pictures of Grammy, were there? Are there, when she was little? Just the one in the school picture. And then there's the one I have in the hall, standing, I think, holding onto a chair. But Dad, on the other hand, you know, they always took trips and picture taking. Barbara was telling me not too long ago, which I didn't know, that Uncle James was like Dad. And they, before either one were married, they had a dark room upstairs. On Wakefield Street. And I guess Uncle James always, you know, had that. And Dad had the dark room down in the cellar on Brook Street. Oh yeah, that's right. And I remember being down with him. It was very interesting, one little red light. Oh, I was with my dad every chance I got, I loved him. I loved my mother, too. Entirely different personalities. Did Papie ever buy a camera for any of you kids? Or let you use his camera? No, he never made a lot about us taking pictures. Yeah, because he took so many. But Grammy, growing up, you know that she lived with her mother and her grandmother. Her father was a wanderer. She had the two oldest siblings and two deceased siblings. And this is what I wish I had asked more about, you know, what her childhood was like. Yeah. They lived in an apartment. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. If it was a small one family. Oh. Or two families, I don't know. But you know the address. Yeah. You've never driven past or anything. No. Huh. I know. It was off, if it still left, Webb Street, off Mineral Spring Avenue. In? Pawtucket. Pawtucket, right. Yeah, it was Pawtucket. It was a prairie, she often would say. It was a prairie? That's funny. And then she went to public school? Yeah. Oh, no, she went to St. Mary's. In Pawtucket? Mm-hmm. Until? And I think she only went to like sixth grade. I think Dad only went to eighth grade. But, you know, her spelling was always great, her penmanship. Wow. Yeah, by sixth grade. And I remember we used to go, Dad used to take us to the Lafayette often to eat. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. And she would recite that whole thing. Lafayette was a Frenchman, you know. Oh, yeah, she was a great, her education consisted of a lot of memorization, I think. She had poems. But, you know, like in her, remember, from grammar school. Yeah. And Dad was the only one that didn't have like a college education. In his family? Yeah. Really? Yeah. And I don't know why, unless it was when his mother took sick, Uncle James went to like, what am I trying to say? Like a... a trade school? Yeah. That's not the word I was looking for, but like a trade school. And he was really artistic. And Aunt Mary went to a normal school, became principal. And Uncle John, who I don't remember, went to Johns Hopkins. Wow. So, tell me the order of Papie's siblings. Uncle James. Was the oldest. Yeah. Dad. Mm-hmm. Aunt Mary and John. And, oh, she lost about at least three. Really? I think she had one or two Johns before. Oh, really? Before it took... My mother said he was, and from his pictures, he was handsome. Yeah. But he's the one you didn't know? No. He died of TB like at the age of 32 or something. Oh, gosh. And I remember... He was the youngest. Yeah. And was his mother still alive, do you think? She died when she was 64. And what was her name? Barbara. Oh, Barbara Warburton? Mm-hmm. Was she the Warburton? Mm-hmm. And then she... She was the oldest of, I think, eight. Oh, really? Yeah. And her father became a Catholic after, I think, something like 14 years of marriage. And became very devout, played... They all played the organ at church. And I guess his name was James. He played the organ. Aunt Mary Canavan, and Dad. Uncle James played the clarinet. They had a small little band. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. So, Barbara Warburton, her father was James Warburton? And what was her mother's name? I think it... I'm not sure. Maybe like Alice O'Hare. O'Hare? She was Irish, yeah. Huh. What's Warburton? English? Yeah. And what was his religion that he grew up with? I don't know. A Christian, Protestant faith? Yeah. And then she had... I know Ma's grandmother was Presbyterian. I remember Ma saying that. And I think a lot of people born in Scotland were Presbyterian. Oh. You remind me of Carolyn Farrick. She did that all the time. Twisted her hair. Yeah. So, Barbara Warburton, who was probably raised Catholic... Yes. ...married... Richard Sylvester. Where that came from, I don't know. Canavan? Oh, that was Papie's father's name, Richard? Mm-hmm Richard Sylvester Canavan. Do you know anything about his parents? His father was John. I suppose his mother was Mary. No, and I'm sure it's in... John Canavan. You don't know what her maiden name was? No. I'll have to pull out, you know, the little history that Aunt Mary Canavan... Yeah, I'd like to see that. I'm so glad she wrote that down. Thank God. And that was because of Jimmy Gamlin. Oh, yeah. You know, it was a school project. Yeah. Just like Carrie with Nana. Yeah, and just like Richard with Nana. Yeah, only Aunt Mary's is much more extensive. Oh, good. I mean, she had the dates, you know, when this one died. Right. Yeah. So, Barbara married Richard. Yeah. And they had those four. Four. James. James, Ambrose. Ambrose, Mary, and... I don't know where Henry Ambrose came from. And then who did your uncle's... Aunt Mary never married? No. No. She was an unpicked bud. The unpicked bud. And James, did he ever marry? I'm sorry. I'm mixing it up with John. John. John died. John died. John married too? Yes. Even though he died at 32? Yeah. I think her name was Edna for some reason. Did they have children? No. No. But my mother's recollection of him, and I heard it hundreds of times, was getting off the train and, I don't know, she said he was just the most handsome man with two great danes. Oh, really? Yeah. That's what I heard about him. I remember about Uncle John. Where did he live? Well, probably coming from medical school or whatever. Oh, he went to medical school. Was he a practicing doctor? I would think so, by 32. Yeah, by 32. But I don't know anything about that either. Wow. You know, all these things I never asked Dad. And he died of TB? Yep. Wow. And Edna just kind of lost track? Yeah, Barbara kind of kept in touch. See, she was that much older and, of course, living in the old homestead, and all the aunts and cousins, they'd always go there. And, you know, Dad would talk about, Aunt Alica and Aunt Bertha, this and tha. You know, I mean, they had Who's Bertha? Bertha Mullen. She married, I don't know, one of those girls, Barbara? Mary? Sarah? Hiram? Whittaker? Whose kids are these? Barbara's siblings. Barbara Gamelin? No, Barbara, my grandmother. Oh, the eight Warburtons. Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. But Hiram and Whittaker. Wow. I remember Dad saying, Whittaker, they called him Warby. Oh. Not much better than. So, James is Barbara's father. Yeah. And he was the oldest. Yeah. And he ended up staying in the family home. Yeah. He had to go down and cellar to smoke. Who's his wife? Well, her name was Mary Brennan of course she died in childbirth. The peritonitis set in that was the doctor's fault because people, you know, from what I've heard, so many people said you should sue that doctor, but they wouldn't. So imagine having a new baby and your wife died. Do you think that's when he moved back home, or do you think he just never left? Yeah, because I think they might have lived in Pawtucket. Oh, she was from Pawtucket, too. Her name was Mary Brennan. Pretty. Some pictures I've seen really are pretty. And her mother said she was such a nice, nice person. So Barbara was brought up by Aunt Mary. And Aunt Tilda. Who's Tilda? She was my grandfather's sister. Richard's sister. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I didn't ask that. Who had a brother, John, Tilda, Mathilda, Mary Ann, and Lizzie. And they were all Canavans. And Tilda lived with him? Yeah, she and Aunt Mary, because Aunt Mary was, really it was Aunt Tilda that brought up Barbara, because Aunt Mary was, teaching. And she was, I remember, she was clean, clean, clean. In fact, Barbara said, you know, later in life, she said, I'm sorry I ever brought you up this way, because Barbara is, she'd be taking things out of the cabinet to wash. She did. She took them out of, I don't know where, took everything out of the china closet. I said, oh, God, I didn't get any of your genes. But I remember my mother saying, you know, as kids, if we dropped crumbs, she'd be right after us with a dustpan and broom. Tilda. Aunt Tilda. So who was living in the house when Barbara was growing up? Her father and Aunt Tilda and Aunt Mary. And that's it? Yeah. And I think I told you too, which I didn't know until not too long ago, that Grampy bought that duplex as an investment and had planned, you know, to build a house for them later on. So it was a duplex? Yeah. So who lived where? Well, they always lived on the left side, and then they rented. Oh, they did? No, when Barbara got married, she lived on the left side. So Richard and Barbara were dead by the time? I think, oh, and I remember Martha.. . in fact, I have a nice writer about my grandfather. And I think my dad was more like my grandfather. My mother said he was the most wonderful man. I guess easygoing and just she couldn't praise him enough. So she knew him? Yeah. Yeah. I think he died in 1933. Now looking back, that must have been a horrible year. Oh, so he lived there when Barbara was born? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And do you think the grandmother was still alive also? Barbara, that is? She was 64 when she died. Oh. So. Strange household though, huh? Yeah. Three generations. Yeah. All mixed. Yeah. And Aunt Mary, she truly should have been a nun. I think she probably would have been, only she fell and broke her hip somehow. I mean, there's a picture of her like with crutches or something. But she was so religious. She had a little prayer room. She never made Barbara do this, but she made me do it. Hold my arms out. Hold your arms out, like crucifix style? Like the cross You know. What did she pick on me for? You needed salvation. Oh. On your knees? This little brat needs to do some penance. Yeah. Like this, even as a kid. And I thought oh God, when can I let my arms down? And would you do the rosary or something? Oh, I suppose. I don't remember. There's a little statue. Oh, I suppose a crucifix. Probably a statue of the Blessed Mother. She truly should have been a nun. I don't think she and my mother, they were so entirely different. Oh, yeah. And I don't think they got off to a good start, because my mother asked her to be a bridesmaid. Yeah. And I think she probably thought Dad was marrying beneath himself. Uh-huh. Because they were friends with the governor that lived up the street, you know. I kind of get the impression. They had a few bucks. They always had the horse and buggy. Like 5900, the number plate that Barbara has, that was how many cars were on the road at the time. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. When they got their first license plate. Yeah. Uh-huh. What was I saying? So what happened when she asked you to be a bridesmaid? Oh, she said, well, Agnes, you have so many friends. Why don't you have these friends? Wow. Yeah. So my mother told me the story, and that's as far as she went. And I just, I don’t know, but my mother was so, like, they would take her on trips and The Canavans would? Yeah, if Dad, once in a while, when they'd go on a trip, they'd take Aunt Mary. Oh, take Aunt Mary. And it would be, I think, more my mother's idea, you know. She'd make up scrapbooks. Aunt Mary would? Oh, yeah, pictures and writing underneath.